Curse

maxxfury · Oct 13, 2006, 12:09 PM // 12:09

If im monking in a pug ill generally bring rebirth, purely because i dont know the quality of the players and no matter how good i am on the day at monking, accidents happen and players bridge agro, rambo, and perform other potential wipe happy actions.

And if worst comes to worse i can bail and rebirth, simple as.
a bit of DP is better than a wipeout.

if im playing mesmer im more likely bring a res chant if im /mo for a combat res when needed. otherwise ill bring a res siggy for what ever class im running at the time.

PVP, monk, no res, everything else res sig, BUt on occasion a FC reschant, or a naomi, depending on team setups.

Trvth Jvstice · Oct 13, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

90% of the time, some of the PVE pug will have monk as their secondary. If you're monking, take res chant or ressurect and ask one of the /mo's to take rebirth.

Often, when an entire group dies and the monk is the only one left, the monk ran away and stopped healing. If the monk had stayed with the group and kept healing, while spamming -RUN! the group would have had a better chance of living.

There have been sooo many times I've been monking in a pug with another monk and it got hectic for a bit. I see the other monk heading for the hills and I'm alone trying to keep the group and myself alive. Of course a monk needs to stay out of the fight as much as he can, but don't give up and abandon the group. Try to make it a group retreat.

I can usually kite well enough to keep myself alive in the midst of a mob and keep healing. But- If the team wipes, I'm rarely the last one alive. --I stick with my team.If we all die, so be it.

--Here's a trick to use WoH, Dwaanas Kiss and Vigorius spirit to keep the team alive in a PVE mission/quest. Keep v. spirit on everyone in the party. The enchantment on them makes Dwaanas do extra healing. When it gets tough, Dwaana's and WoH will do huge heals at very little energy cost.--NOTE: dont use enchants around mesmers.

SpeedyKQ · Oct 13, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

A) I didn't tell you my skill bar.
B) Bringing suboptimal skills is terrible play. I clearly don't consider res an optimal skill. I believe I explained as such.

You said it doesn't have a res on it, which means you'll only succeed with skilled teammates. And anyone can win with skilled teammates, even an afk'er. Monking without a res is a totally different type of lack of judgement as overextending and taking too much damage. But I don't see why one is worse than the other.

----

As far as rebirth vs. other res's - rebirth is the best choice unless you think monks should be rezzing mid-battle, and IMO monks usually shouldn't be rezzing mid-battle, they should be healing.

trankle · Oct 13, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

In PvE, you can choose between two options:

1. My group has an objective, and I will bring the skills necessary to complete that objective, even if it means helping a terrible group of players through. If I'm the last person standing, I will be able to get the party rezzed, and we will still have a chance at completing our objective.

2. My group has an objective, but it is more important that the group plays correctly and does not wipe. Should they wipe, I reserve the right to stand rez-less, scold them for not retreating, and use my self-righteousness as a shining example to the group, helping them become better players. I will then port back to town, and find a different group with whom to tackle my original objective.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The most loathesome party member is the last one standing, unable to rez, but quite happy to sermonize about the party's poor playing.

If PvE is easy enough that you expect your party to survive everything, it should be easy enough that you can succeed using a seven skill build.

Sofonisba · Oct 13, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

2. My group has an objective, but it is more important that the group plays correctly and does not wipe. Should they wipe, I reserve the right to stand rez-less, scold them for not retreating, and use my self-righteousness as a shining example to the group, helping them become better players. I will then port back to town, and find a different group with whom to tackle my original objective.

You made me smile today. Thanks.

crimsonfilms · Oct 13, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Rebirth is justified because people

1.) think their uber build does not have room for Rebirth , or worse a Res Sig.

2) Monks will likely to survive when the entire team wipes.

Both are the wrong approach to PvE.

1 - there is no build, NO SKILL, nothing - that is more important than Res.
If you are a X/Mo you bring Rebirth.

2. If your wipes and the monk is the only one alive - your team decided not to retreat because you where expecting the monk to survive and Rebirth all 7 of you.

See the idiotic logic behind it?

If you retreated earlier, you only need to res 1-3 players. This way, monks are full of energy and ready to go and it takes less time to finish the mission (Rebirthing 7 players and waiting for energy regen is a waste of time).

Not only that, if one player is behind enemy lines (meaning impossible to rebirth without getting your monk attacked) - the monks 60 armor and getting pounded for 6-8 seconds is kind of useless isn't it? Your W/Mo and his stances on the other hand.....

It does not make sense Mo/ with rebirth. Your W/Mo has uber stances to protect him.

Has a higher armor

Does not need energy as much as the monk or offensive casters

He is being healed by 3 healing skills instead of 2 (remember 1 more heal skill because no Rebirth)

He can res midliners and frontliners without moving much (monks may end up in enemies aggro bubble)

etc.

So why does Monk bring Rebirth again?

milias · Oct 13, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Everyone should carry a rez, end of story.

VGJustice · Oct 13, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Man, that's a tough question. And what it really boils down to is "what are you doing?"

If you need your healers keeping people alive at all times, then it's just a bad idea for them to carry a long cast res or Rebirth. If they're standing there trying to res you could lose the rest of the party.

But, if you're not under time constraints, then having a hard res can keep the party going for longer. Rebirth is a personal favorite of mine in this instance.

Personally, I feel that everyone that isn't healing or support should have at the very least a Res Sig. The Healer or supporter should skill for what they're doing.

[EDIT] To crimsonfilms: my PvE monk packs Rebirth because I play with PUGs a lot. Not all of them are stupid, but I find it's much better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Also, it keeps me from Resing mid fight (I have kind of a mental block on that)

thelessa · Oct 13, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Everyone should carry a rez. If there is a last man standing with no rez, then misson/quest fails.

lightblade · Oct 13, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Pretty much everybody need to carry rez sig unless you have a really good reason not to. Here are some good reasons:

- You have a monk secondary and therefore can carry rebirth.
- You're running boon prot that a rez skill will drop your power by half
- You're running thumper that a rez skill will drop your power by half

lightblade · Oct 13, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Pretty much everybody need to carry rez sig unless you have a really good reason not to. Here are some good reasons:

- You have a monk secondary and therefore can carry rebirth.
- You're running boon prot that a rez skill will drop your power by half
- You're running thumper that a rez skill will drop your power by half

Skuld · Oct 13, 2006, 05:55 PM // 17:55

If there is a last man standing, you've already failed as far as i'm concenerned :/

Sofonisba · Oct 13, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

If there is a last man standing, you've already failed as far as i'm concenerned :/

You don't really live that philosophy, do you? If so, remind me never to party with you.

If your party almost wipes, and the last person alive DOES have res, you would just up and leave because you've "already failed?"

Trvth Jvstice · Oct 13, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

@ Saphir ..so you're saying what? Don't rez them at all? I hope you don't want the monk to run up to the enemies and rebirth. IMO-The best thing to do is, while in battle and someone dies, someone (not a monk) uses a rez sig -only takes 3 seconds.

You've been playing with a bunch of sucky players if they rebirth a teammate into a group of enemies. Why would they do something like that unless they were griefers.

Edit:corrected a spelling error -hookt on fonix werkt for me!

saphir · Oct 13, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

yeah, i misread the post and assumed that it was a last monk standing w/ rebirth vs a last warrior standing w/ rebirth.

and yes, i've actually been in a few pugs where people have been that stupid and constantly rebirthing poor casters into the dead center of aggro, thinking they were doing the revived a huge favor lol

i usually monk in elite/toa areas where using a rez sig should only be an absolutely last resort

Praetor · Oct 13, 2006, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Your ideal PUG should be as so (yes, I know ideal and PUG are an oxymoron):
Monks with no res
W/Mo with Restore Life/Res Chant
R/X -> R/Mo with rebirth
Else with Res Signet to be used only the monks

Why this setup?
Monks don't have the time to res in-battle. Your typical W/Mo probably lost aggro, and is scott-free to res anyone. A ranger, unless the product of a consanguineous mating, can easily escape since they're usually out of aggro range while fighting, and can either rebirth someone into the backlines, or run away and rebirth the entire team. Res signets are your best option for res'ing the monk mid-battle. You could you vengence, but you better cover it well with other enchants.
You would expect fast-cast mesmers to have the in-battle hard res, but mesmers are already rare, and are typically Me/E fast nuke or Me/N fast SS. Also, PUG sins don't carry res since they're just food for your MM.

PvP is an entirely different situation, due to mostly wide variance. Also, the res setup won't work in the Deep or Urgoz since you're not in typical PvE situations.

Trvth Jvstice · Oct 13, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

/googles consanguineous. Hey, I thought it against forum rules to use a word with more than eight letters.

"Never use a complex word when a diminutive one would have sufficed." lol jk

arcanemacabre · Oct 13, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

It all depends on the build, the situation, and the team.

I used to be like Milias and carry a res no matter what. I've found that while a Res Sig is pretty much a required skill, hard res' aren't. A hard res can seriously gimp you if you're trying to battle res, and can cause a party wipe much easier than say, running away. I have a kind of formula to determine if I need a res, and what kind.

Golde Rule #0) In a Mission of any kind, everyone brings a res. Period. This is to reduce the chances of the entire party wiping except that last guy with no res. That is called defeat.

Rule #1) All Mo/, Rt/, /Mo or /Rt spellcasters or ranged (Ranger or Paragon) bring a hard-res, unless your job requires that you keep your team alive, i.e. healing or protection, and you cannot risk a 'useless' skill slot.

Rule #2) All other spellcasters or ranged bring Sig.

Rule #3) All melee bring Sig.

Rule #4) All the rules (except golden rule) can be rendered invalid, if the team as a whole decide it so. In the case of negotiations of who's bringing res, as long as the whole team agrees, there should be a battle plan that keeps the hard-res'er(s) protected, just in case.

That's basically it. It's worked so far, and we haven't been in any situations where we've said "Aw, dangit, wish so-and-so had brought a res!".

blackbane · Oct 13, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Monks should never carry a res, you let people die its either because A) They are bad and did something wrong (Ex. Frenzyhealsig) B) You suck (Ex. Healing breeze) C) You can't handle the dmg (Ex. 2 heal monks no prot at all) or D) You suck.

In a balanced build its a good idea to have 2 monks one memo with distortion / res chant, its against my religion to bring res when i monk.

Eclair · Oct 13, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Whenever I join a PUG (which is pretty rare nowadays, but much more common last year), I assume most people aren't going to listen when I tell them to retreat, so that's why I bring Rebirth.

I've completed a lot of missions just by rebirthing most of the party after a partial or near full party wipe. Most party wipes happen when people don't listen and aggro one group too closely to the patrol route of another group. I mean, sure I could just quit and find another group, but I might as well just try to salvage the situation and continue on with the mission.

One example: On Abaddon's Mouth, my party rushed into the Ether Seal chamber (the one with the 7 ether seals) and ran into the middle of it. They then mostly ignored my pings when the Mursaat Backup came from both sides. They only started running when 4 of them were dead, and in the end only the other monk and I made out out of the aggro range. I think we ended up killing one of the nearest Mursaat and rebirthed the whole group. Then proceeded to finish the mission.

If someone else brings rebirth, I definately wouldn't bring a res at all, but you can't really rely on other people in Pugs =P